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posted by dennisn on April 14th, 2012 at 11:43PM
Sure, I can tell you a way where everyone is treated well and "equally". The way you behave in your "private" / personal life! I remember asking you before, who are these "bad people" that you are so afraid of? What "bad things" are you so afraid they will do? Are they in your real / personal life -- or just fictions -- perhaps bashed into our heads from public indoctrination camps (public schools)? You are willing to initiate violence against me, because of these people and these things. The onus is entirely on you to prove to me that pointing a gun to my head is necessary to guard against them, and what you think they will do. I have no obligation in this whatsoever. I would never dare point a gun at you.
We are also starting to get too tangled up in this ugly social knot. For the sake of clarity, let's just pick on one thing -- let's say public schooling. I say the current system is quite evil, and I definitely would never support it. Will you let me withdraw my support? And even if the most awesome school, that only taught physics and linux and hacking and punk music and anarchy would be an option, I still would not want to be forced at gunpoint to pay for it. Maybe I won't have kids, or for whatever other selfish reason, I won't want to spend money on others. Will you let me choose how to spend my money, or will you point a gun to my head, and force me to spend it according to your commands?
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posted by jenni on April 15th, 2012 at 8:12AM
But you make it sound like everyone is as nice and fair as we are, but that's just not the case, and I agree that people shouldn't be forced to do things I just can't seem to forget about the selfish things I have been hearing about for most of my adult life. Maybe I just listen to to much news, but I doubt it.
I find it hard to just sit back and listen to my friends who really do want to go to university and learn hands on about whatever they want to learn but can't because they don't have enough money, for even the cheapest education in the country. All forms of education should be accessible to all, whether its punk rock school or yoga school. Perhaps one day all teachers and educators will work on a barter system but until then then I want to try to make the best of what we do have, or since I do like your ways perhaps while I am away you can start a revolution and make me come back to a better town.
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posted by dennisn on April 15th, 2012 at 9:40AM
I have never claimed that "everyone" is nice and fair. Nor would pointing a gun to their heads magically make them nice and fair. On the other hand, it would make you not nice, and unfair, if you did that.
Moreover, apparently, you do NOT agree that people shouldn't be forced to do things against their will. You really need to think about this point a bit more.
So, you bring up a concrete point, even though you completely ignore my concrete point and my questions :P. But fine. Please explain exactly why your "friends" can't afford "even the cheapest education". Rent can be as low as $300/mo, assuming they're not living with their parents. (Why don't they live with their parents? That would make rent free!) Food is another $300/mo on top of that. An excellent engineering education (at least at the University of Toronto) can be had for $10,000/year. So, the grand total is under $20,000, and can be much lower, depending on which program you take (online programs should be a tonne cheaper), where you live. Student loans are also readily available, as a last case scenario.
So, are you sure these people you're referring to really can't go to university, even though they really really want to?!? Do they at least study for free online, with the massive resources and textbooks available online? I mean, they can actually learn everything for FREE (MIT offers many of their course materials online for free, for example). Are they doing that?
So, you see what I'm slowly and painfully getting at :p. I dare you to think of even a single valid reason to justify *pointing guns at your neighbours head*. I understand things may be more difficult if you are born in poverty, but nothing even close to the desperation and severity that would require violence and guns.
Getting back to my questions, that you blatantly ignored :p, *I HAVE SEVERE MORAL AND PRACTICAL OBJECTIONS TO CURRENT SCHOOLS*. Let alone that I am being violently forced to pay for them. I really am convinced that they rot the brain and highly propagandize kids. Such terrible places should NOT be "accessible to all". They should be completely inaccessible! That is my passionate, well thought-out position. Now, the question is, do you respect my well thought-out opinions, my ethics, my values? Or will you completely ignore and de-value them, and force me to do things against my values/ethics/wishes?
(Regarding the "barter system" you referred to, I'm guessing what you actually have a problem with is *government fiat paper-money* -- and not the concept of money in general. Money, in general, IS simply a barter system. Bitcoins, for example, will be the money of the future, and they are awesome, and completely separate from the State.)
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posted by jenni on April 15th, 2012 at 7:00PM
Some people have parents who charge them rent or some people have parents that they are not capable of living with for many different reasons.If you want examples I can give you some! Life is expensive, but yes, people do make the choice of where they spend their money . Student loans however, are almost pointless. Students spend thousands to apparently gain access to better employment then the moment they are out of school the money comes right out of their bank accounts and back to the bank whether they have found a job or not.
Yes, the internet is a great learning tool but some, myself included, can't just learn by reading something, I need interaction, instant reaction, I find writing these responses a bit hard, beyond the fact that I don't much like writing I prefer to hear your answers right away, etc, and I feel like I make more sense in real life and digest your information better. Perhaps this is why I ignored your points.
I tend to think of a barter system as services as opposed to actual physical exchange of some material. I make you food you make me shoes or something.
Bitcoins seem to just be virtual money, but please correct me if I am wrong.
Your points are very valid and they always push me right into a wall and I get stuck and this is where I am now,
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